Creativity For Resilience

Between Breath and Air
S1-E4: Marion Piper

Dana: If you're looking for practical creativity for big ideas, then Dr. Marion Piper's your go-to gal. As a creativity coach and copywriter, she supports multi-passionate creatives to embrace the juggle so that they can share their world-changing ideas and art with confidence and passion. Marion believes that creativity has the power to save us over and over and over again if we're willing to transmute our pain into purpose. Post-traumatic growth is possible and you can spiral up from life's big challenges and setbacks using, spoiler alert, creativity. Having traveled the world and completed a swag of degrees including a PhD, Dr. Marion is here to inspire you to stop imitating everyone else and start using your own voice for real. So, hello, Marion. Let's talk about using creativity as a path to wellness.

Marion: Oh man, this is such a ripe, ripe topic and there's so much in it. And I think the reason creativity is such a powerful tool for wellness is first and foremost, it puts you back in the driver's seat, right? So, I often talk about it as creativity being, particularly for those of us that work in a field or in a job that demands we use our creative energy, that we put our creative energy to work for other people. And I often describe creativity as both the poison and the antidote in this situation because, you know, it's a poison to us sometimes because when we give too much of it away to other people, whether that's our clients, our patients or even our projects, you know, when we give too much away, it really empties our cup and then we can start to feel things like resentment and we can get really burnt out and, you know, all those kinds of things that go along with feeling zapped and drained. But it's also the antidote. So, the process, it's inherent in the process itself, are different phases that allow us to experience, I suppose, the empowerment and the joy of putting something out into the world. But as a form, particularly creativity as a form of self-care, where we use it to refill our cup, that's one thing that I'm really interested in. And I'm not talking like, you know, colouring in books and mandalas, but more thinking about it more broadly as a process, as an organic way to connect the dots in new and interesting ways, which is something that we can do in every part of our lives, not just when we sit down to write at the page or sit, you know, paint at the canvas or anything like that. So, oh man, it's just the older I get, the more I realize how powerful it's been in my own life. And I continue to see when people invest just a little bit of time every day in their own creativity, over time, what that does to people's energy. So, yeah, it's great. Love it.

Dana: That's beautiful. I've always really admired your explicit passion for using creativity as a vehicle to reach wellness and to deepen your personal understanding. And that totally aligns with my own ethos as well. I live as a very creative person myself. And it is just so comforting to be in the company of somebody who's also rooted in that felt knowing of all the different ways that it can feel and look to live a creative life. And you bring so much of yourself to your work and to the world. And you model beautifully what it looks like to create and recreate yourself on your personal evolution so unapologetically. And it's absolutely beautiful to watch. I've known you for maybe two or three years now. And I've always just really admired the stand that you take for creativity as a tool and a vehicle to reach wellness, but also to help you sustain it as well. And that's something that I bet you could speak to is I've heard you definitely take a stand for claiming that absolutely everybody is a creative. And I know that this statement, because I've spoke to people about it, really makes a lot of people squirm. So what would you say to someone who doesn't believe themselves to be a creative person?

Marion: This is so good. And first of all, thank you so much for such kind words. It's always beautiful to, I agree, spend time with people who understand the value and the power of creativity. Because I think the Western world particularly has had a really fraught relationship with creativity, particularly the kind of creativity that we normally think of when someone mentions the word, which is often the artistic kind of creativity. But creativity itself, I sort of see it as a process, a product and a practice. So what I'm particularly interested in is the practice of creativity, which as I sort of hinted at before, the definition, my working definition is creativity is an organic process of connecting the dots in new and interesting ways. And so when we think about organic, it happens within us. It's not something necessarily that we have to do, but the whole universe is built on this idea of expansion and creation. If you look back through history, the world that we live in is an iteration of what we've built. And so the idea of creativity being just for artists or just for people who have developed an artistic skill, which I still believe anybody can do if they have a passion and an interest in it. Not everyone has an interest in, I want to put it in air quotes, being creative, aka toiling in the studio or going on tour as a musician. That's just one brand. That's one expression of the creative process. However, we all make very small creative decisions throughout our day from the clothes we choose to wear, the way we talk, the way we interact with each other, what we decide to eat. And one of my favorite analogies for creativity in general is cooking and the chef. That is the most beautiful articulation of the creative process. Because you're starting with an idea and you end up with something tangible, essentially, that's what we're looking at. So whether that idea is, today, I feel like wearing pink, which I am wearing, my creative decision is, well, what will I pair that with? What looks and feels good to me? And so I think when we start to decouple creativity from this notion of artistry and the artist, for me, that's where things get really exciting. Because then it blows open the definition of creativity as something that is not just about making things, but it is a way of being in the world. When we look at the world through the lens of creativity, we start to notice just how embedded it is in everything that we see, from nature to the buildings to the floor that we're standing on. Somebody created your house. So I think that there's value in expanding the definition to not be so intimately tied to the products that we make. For me, personally, where I see the biggest benefit is when something happens in life that really shakes us to our core, that really, there's really deeply painful moments. Because pain is one of the most beautiful, raw creative ingredients that we get gifted. And so my question is always, after something really challenging happens, is not why did this happen or why did this happen to me? But what will I make of this? What can I do with this? Which is the post-traumatic growth trajectory. And interestingly enough, when you ask that question, oftentimes what you end up producing is the opposite of the pain that you feel, which is why you see so many people who, for example, maybe their partner or their parent, somebody has cancer and the person passes away. And then all of a sudden, this other person, they have this renewed sense of energy for life. And then they go on to start a nonprofit to support breast cancer patients. That's a classic example of turning your pain into power, which is an incredibly creative moment. And so looking for those moments, looking for those opportunities to be creative, aka to just take something and turn it into something else, that's what I'm really interested in and getting people to start to notice. Because I think life is so busy and so hectic, it's easy to just blast past all these incredible things that happen just in one day, let alone across the span of a lifetime.

Dana: There's so much in that. I just want to savor all of what you said for a moment. Wow. Yes, to all of that. I'm really interested in knowing more about the post-traumatic growth work that you've studied deeply. And what can you tell us about post-traumatic, you touched on it in the beautiful explanation a moment ago, but can you expand more about that realm in that world?

Marion: Yeah, absolutely. And trauma is something that affects not just the person who's experienced it, but everyone within their community and anyone that they interact with. So when I talk about post-traumatic growth, I start by talking about the individual because that's what's kind of easiest to grapple with. It's easiest to understand. And all it means is that it's possible to experience positive psychological change, aka within us, in our brain and in our being, after trauma. Not every experience of a trauma or a challenge or adversity necessarily has to lead to PTSD, which is your post-traumatic stress disorder. It's not saying that bad things don't happen or that bad things aren't painful. They're incredibly painful. When some things happen, they completely shake your world. However, there are also these other little smaller traumas  that happen to us, these small T traumas, which is what I'm interested in, that actually over time can add up to be more damaging than a life-threatening big T trauma. And what I love so much about the concept of post-traumatic growth, which was coined by Richard Tadecki and Calhoun, whose first name I am forgetting, but we can add that into the show notes. Because I always remember them as Tadecki and Calhoun because as a researcher, that's what you do. You remember people's last names. And Lawrence Calhoun. There we go. I got there. What I love about this concept so much is that it talks about the five life areas or the five ways in which post-traumatic growth tends to manifest in people who experience it. And for me, it's almost identical or it's a match to what happens to us in the creative process. So part of my research was matching up these two ideas and saying, actually, one of the ways to kickstart and maintain growth after a challenging experience is to be creative. And so there's plenty of examples of it throughout history. And the one that I often refer to is Frida Kahlo was a perfect example of post-traumatic growth, even though she was still incredibly traumatised and worried and experienced lots of different experiences as a result of what she went through. She did take what she went through and made the most of it. If we think about it in really simple terms, that's what we're doing. And so the five life areas, which I think are really interesting, people often tend to experience a spiritual change. They have a developer greater appreciation of life. Their relationships tend to deepen. They have a greater sense of their own personal strength. And then my favourite, they develop or have the capacity to look for new possibilities and opportunities in life. So if we think about those five things, and I invite people that I work with, and whenever I talk about this stuff, think about ways that you can start to cultivate that now because make no mistake, you know, the shit is coming for us all. Nobody is immune from the difficulties in life. And so I love this idea of using creativity as a vehicle, not just to make really cool things in the world and to express yourself, but also to bolster you against life's challenges and adversities and having that ability to take an experience that I've been through and turn it into something useful and productive, not just for me, but also for other people to experience. I like, handle my heart has saved my life more times than I'd care to imagine. And it was something that I just did naturally because I needed to understand, you know, so it's such a robust concept. And I definitely encourage people to look into it further if it's picked your interest, because yeah, it's just I could just talk about it for days on end.

Dana: Oh, it's beautiful. What I really am inspired by this is it feels like it's a lens that's put over the topic of trauma, which is wonderful to hear that more people are more explicitly talking about like traumatic experiences and that we have more avenues for processing and healing. And you know, you can give credit to more conversations happening about mental health and all the progress that's occurred over the past while, but I definitely have noticed I'm not sure if it's just where I'm listening or if it's more in conversations that we're talking about trauma and the effects of it. But that word shows up a lot more in my sphere anyway. And what I'm under what I love about this is that it doesn't just stop there, right? It's not like, oh, I've experienced trauma. It's actually giving you a beautiful framework and a lens to look at the experience of bumping into a trauma that occurred, how that affects you and your body and how you show up in your relationships and life, etc. And puts that to good use in powerful ways, beautiful ways. Wow. Thanks for explaining it that way. Am I am I interpreting in the right way?

Marion: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, you're right. And I mean, I discovered or came across this concept when I was doing my PhD back in like 20 probably was 2014, 2015. And I believe the concept has only really been around probably since the early 2000s. And it came out of polypop psychology. And it's so interesting to me that you know, we and I mean, this speaks to probably the medical model. This is me has it in a guest here. This is not gospel. But you know, our medical model being built on on treating disease. And so oftentimes what people will look for first when something happens is what's wrong with you. Rather than you know, what could protect what else could be possibly going on. And this I think this runs through everything, you know, from different approaches to nutrition and health and and body work even, you know, oftentimes we we only go to get help when we're in pain. But what I love about post traumatic growth is it offers us another opportunity to kind of go Okay, you know, I like I have agency here, regardless of, you know, whether I'm going through something painful or not, I can still do something to support myself. And, and I love also to that one of the five life areas is about relationships. Because I think in today's world, particularly for a number of reasons that a lot of the onus is pushed onto the individual to fix things, which I think is very, very dangerous way of thinking. Because, you know, it's so hard to move the needle on anything when you're on your own. So I love that there's this focus on relationships. And it's actually it's actually the most important predictor of growth after trauma is having a support system, or at least having one person that is there for you. It doesn't have to be a whole tribe. It just is one person that accepts you that the whole space for you and that you can trust and support can can be the difference between, you know, growth and experiencing PTSD. So yeah, I I'm so glad to be a part of this this shift in thinking. And I think, you know, it's been long overdue that we start to actually treat, you know, what's happening inside us with the exact same reverence and support as what's happening to us, or what's happening within our other systems within our body, because we know that they're not separate, right? We know we can feel it. And I yeah, I just think that there's such a great opportunity to not it's because it's also not about bypassing what we go through. I love so much that this concept is about confronting it head on and saying, you know what, this has happened to me, and it was incredibly painful and it changed my life. But it is not going to determine the quality or state of my trajectory moving forward. I'm going to use this as a spring board while still acknowledging what has happened. And for me, that is like, insanely empowering. Like it just makes me like, feel like I can do anything. And you know, any opportunity that we can give to each other to experience that feeling, I think, you know, can only do good. You know?

Dana: Yeah, yeah, what you described really is inherent creativity in that process. So whether or not your process of moving through and into the various facets of your post traumatic growth journey, whether or not it involves a creative process, the process of choosing to work with this framework is creative in itself. So that's cool.

Marion: Yeah, I mean, you only have to look back to, you know, to the COVID-19 pandemic. What did everybody do when things went when when everything changed when our entire world shifted? They they baked, they did DIY, they knitted, they created things, you know, and also we turned to the arts, we consumed, we were on Netflix, we were on zoom, we were looking for opportunities to connect that were fun and exciting. And I think this is part of the problem is that creativity is so invisible because it's everywhere that we take it for granted, we take for granted that, you know, that it's just a part of being human. I see it so much as one of the basic human needs, like we need to have an outlet to express ourselves. Because if we if we don't whatever we whatever we don't express gets repressed. And you know, there's a whole bodies of research, you know, I look to Dr. Gabel Marte for this, that talk about the damage, the physical damage it can do to your body when you repress emotional experiences. And it's in its wild to read some of these reports and studies. So, you know, just having having an opportunity and for some of us that might be speaking, for some of us speaking might be too much. And maybe we need to express using our body language, or maybe writing is where we want it, we need to get it out, you know, and it's not about and having an audience either. Self expression is not for anybody else but you. If you want to share it with other people, go for it. But, you know, I love that it's something that you can just keep for yourself, which, you know, again, in today's world that is predicated on hyper connection and content and sharing and being available and being online, you know, we often leave ourselves to last in that group of self expression. So, and I see it, I see it all the time, you know, people stop being online because it gets overwhelming. But also then they're not expressing how that's making them feel. And so they're still stuck in that pain. So, having something to turn to, whether that is just a conversation with a good, a trusted friend or a journal to write in, that, that, you know, is just a space for you to just let vent and just let the demons out. We all need something. We've got to have something.

Dana: Yeah, you made a really important distinction there that self expression really is just for you. I think a lot of us don't know that or forget that because of all the reasons that you just described. But let's talk about avenues for self expression and developing a personal practice.

Marion: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Start with that. It feels like there's a lot of ways we could go. Yeah, yeah. For me, really, foundation, the foundational practice for me is journaling. And I often say, you know, anything in life, it starts with you and it ends with you. No matter, no matter what you're doing, that's kind of how it works. And so that's why I love journaling so much is that it's really a place for me to not just, not just document what's happening to me, but it's also, it's a way that I shape my life through words and through language. And it gives me gives me the ability to have a conversation with myself and to really, you know, ask more powerful questions to, to, you know, my, the version of myself that I know that is, you know, highest. Because oftentimes, when we come to the page, we're coming, you know, with all of this stuff, we have so much stuff that we're just carrying and dealing with and I love to just dump it out on the page so that then I don't have to carry it and I'm a little bit lighter. But that's not for everybody. And I understand that for those of us that it is for, we are for it in a big way. But there's also other ways to do it, you know, you might be more visually inclined. So for you, maybe keeping a visual journal is better where you draw or you, you collage or you take photographs and you stick them in. Or, you know, maybe it's a mixture of the written and the verbal and it's just this, you know, evolving conversation between words and images that happen to represent how you're feeling. But that's the key to it, right, is that we first have to identify the feeling. You have to first pinpoint what it is that is, that is getting us all torn up or putting us into knots is the other kind of visual I like to think about. Because if we can pinpoint the feeling that we are feeling based on what's happening in our life, and then we can, if we also are able to articulate how we really want to feel, then we can start to ask ourselves questions or we can start to explore and play and experiment with what those two opposing feelings might look like. And it's in that process of exploration and experimentation and play that we, you know, sort of reverse our way out of the bad feeling and somehow, oh, I was really angry, but now I'm actually super calm, you know, and one of the facts, one of the scientific facts that I love that has been shared around a bit is that apparently it takes about 90 seconds for an emotion to pass through us. So particularly the, I mean, the really intense ones feel like they keep going, but it's often just our brain kind of holding onto it. So if you can make it through the first 90 seconds of an experience or of a feeling coming up, you've got a really good chance of not holding onto it and not repressing it. So this is why I sort of encourage people to start with journaling and language because if we can articulate it, if we can give it a name, we start to externalize it and we don't over identify with it. Because that's often the problem, right, is that we think, not I am angry, we think I'm anger. You know, we start to really become it and that's where it becomes dangerous is when we over identify with an emotion and really run through it. However, on the flip side of that, I love to be an emotion. I love to embody positive emotions. So, you know, and that we I feel we have a little bit more agency of over to be able to explore, you know, what would being like the question that kind of guides my life is like, what does it truly mean to live a fully creative life? You know, what is that emotion? What does that feeling feel like it's not going to be, you know, all rainbows and unicorns. But if I start to live into that question, if we live into the questions we ask ourselves, life gets a little bit more interesting. It's a little bit more interesting. But also, yeah, there are other so many other ways you can express yourself from, you know, you might be somebody who loves to do things for other people. And maybe your self expression is is caring for somebody else. Maybe, maybe it's more on the side of like encouragement and support. So perhaps like for you, the way that you express yourself is by showing up, you know, and which is also equally valid cooking, mending, cleaning, arranging, organizing, fashion, clothing, hairstyle, you know, anything that you can do to represent what's happening inside of you. And shift the needle and get that stuff out. For me, like dance, like music, all of it, all of it is great. Why I lean on, why I kind of tend to prefer the creative arts is this is because it's like you have, you have tools, you have instruments, you have processes that you can lean into. It's just a little bit more tangible and easier to understand when the self expression is happens, you know, is mediated through a creative medium.

Dana: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. You've listed off so many great ways for people to loop in. Because I don't think like some people who are on the fence of being, oh, I'm not a creative person, I don't know how to start or what's the point. You have so many beautiful options for looping in. So thank you for that. That's great. So if, if somebody was to develop a practice, like that can look like so many ways, what would you advise somebody who is really not identifying as a creative person, but kind of wanted to take one of those inroads. What does it mean to develop a practice like that feels quite ambitious when you're just kind of sniffing it out.

Marion: Oh, for sure, for sure. And it makes sense because, you know, a lot of the kind of the dominant narrative around self expression and creative practice is the high arts, which are very intimidating, very, very intimidating. However, artists themselves are incredibly invitational and welcoming. And so what I would probably suggest first and foremost is to expose yourself to as much as many of those practices as you can, just to experience them just to see them. You know, for example, you might want to watch a documentary about, you know, clothes making and fashion. And really pay attention to what happens in your body when you see, first of all, when you see these practices. If you see somebody writing, if you see somebody singing, and you feel like that nice like bubbling warmth in your stomach, that's definitely something to follow. You know, our bodies will let us know when something is good. If we have, if we're paying attention, if we're listening, it may manifest in different ways for you to so, you know, it might be a warm belly, it could be a flutter of the heart, your fingers could tingle. You know, it's any kind of sensation that, I guess, makes you lean in rather than lean back. And so first and foremost, before you even try anything, just have a look out there, see what people are doing, research, you know, go to a talk, like, just be and be the audience for a little while first. And then when you pinpoint something that's piqued your interest that you're like, oh, actually, you know, maybe I do want to try that. I'd encourage you to try a class first. I'm a huge supporter of tuition and learning as a way to enter into these practices, because it can be, as you said, it can be incredibly intimidating and overwhelming to just pick something up and try it, you know, which is why I get really angry when people say, just journal, or just go, you know, just go, just dance around your living room. It's like, well, actually, I don't like what if someone's like, actually, I don't know how to do that. Like, how do I even start that, you know, so I think if we any opportunity we have to take tuition, and even even, you know, I suggest this to my creativity coaching clients is if you are creatively blocked, you probably need instruction right now, not to be the one leading. So, for that reason, I have a skill share membership, not sponsored, I just am obsessed with them. Because everything on there that you can try like you can try it'll teach you how to make French eggs or, you know, you can do, you can do some some watercolor painting or some pastel drawing like it's and all the classes like an hour it's great. So anything like that or even just YouTube, a YouTube tutorial, how to mend my jacket, you know, that's where you can start and just watch that and say, is that something that interests me. And then once you've figured out what practice you would like to engage in, we'll use the, you know, fashion and clothing as an example. Then I would start small, you know, start as small as you possibly can. Maybe that's just, you know, learning how to do a particular type of stitch, you know, and give yourself creativity loves constraints. So maybe, maybe you'll start doing that once a week for 15 minutes or 30 minutes, you know, and once you do that a couple of times, you might naturally feel the desire, oh, I want to do more, you know, because once it's all we need to do is get going and usually the practice itself will encourage us to keep going. Same thing with like eating better exercising. It's only when you start doing it that you want to do more of it. You're not going to be like zero to 100. Like anyone who says that's not true. So that's all set yourself really, really like smaller than you think, like you might want to go in and be like, I'm going to do an hour a day, seven days a week. You just, you just won't, you absolutely won't follow through on that, especially if you're just starting out. So, you know, if you're thinking, oh, I could do a couple of days a week, start with one, and then maybe if you make it to two or three, awesome, that's your stretch goal. But as small as possible, because the goal here is we're not trying to reach a particular destination. I'm not talking about a creative project, but it is about building a practice. And in order to practice, we must be consistent and regular. And that's not doing it every day, but it's doing it around about the same amount of times each week. And that will fluctuate with, with, you know, what's happening in your life. So I like to sort of set like a baseline, a baseline figure for my practice, which for me is three times a week. That's my baseline journaling goal. And then if I do any more than that, awesome. But it just gives me something to work with. So yeah, you just remember that it's like, yeah, we're not trying to end up anywhere. We're just trying to practice and life is, everything is practice. If we look at it as practice, it becomes more about progress and less about perfection.

Dana: That. Yeah, and the, the showing up repeatedly is, is key for, you know, building new neural pathways to develop habits and have that take effect. It's that repeated exposure over and over and over again that makes it familiar. It makes it less scary. And we start to get into the deeper, more fun things of whatever that practice is. The way you were speaking about it too, I think of a time when I was really into a very consistent yoga practice. And we did the same series of asanas every time, like there was no variation. But every time I showed up to my mat, it was a completely different experience. And it was, it was such a great example of what it is to have a practice, a consistent practice, because you continue to learn even though the structure of it that creative constraint, if you will, held steady. But what happened within the constraints of my mat were different every single time. And I was blown away every, every day I showed up and I think it was three or four times a week that I was practicing. And it did transform it was quite a creative experience because I, you get to know yourself in new ways when you show up repeatedly.

Marion: Yeah, you really do. And what I love about that exact, it's a great example. And I've experienced definitely something similar to with yoga. It's because we're always evolving. You know, we're, we're not, we're not the same because we're organic beings where we're not, you know, we're not, you know, I'll say solid nothing in the universe is solid, everything's moving, like quantum physics, hello. You know, our items are always shifting and changing and we're in response to our environment. So I think what I see people, particularly when it comes to a creative practice, the biggest mistake I see people make is trying to alter the practice too much. They're trying to add too much in. They're trying to achieve and accomplish more than they need to. Because we are going to be a different person every single time we show up at, you know, our desk, the dance studio, you know, the pool, you know, even swimming, you know, it can be an incredibly creative experience. So for all the reasons that you mentioned, I think it's so powerful to to be really strict about the practice and really fluid and open about the experience of the practice. Because yeah, what we want to, if you want to, if you're an achievement focused person, really what you're going after with a creative practice is flow. It's not not making anything but it's getting to that really beautiful moment where, you know, time doesn't exist where you don't exist where you're in that just beautiful uninterrupted, totally focused flow zone. And that's where a lot of the benefits of having a creative practice really reside. And there are there's not it's not just about making things that is a benefit. Yeah, sure, that's cool. Make a cool painting. Awesome. However, for the artist, huge amounts of mental health benefits, what it does to your brain, what it does to your blood pressure, what it does for your immune system, even down to that level, every single cell in your body benefits from sitting in that flow zone. You know, we don't, we don't talk about it a lot because, you know, most people can't make money off it, unfortunately. So, you know, a lot of the things that I talk about are free. And you know, they should be we should be able to take care of ourselves, you know, there shouldn't be a cost on on our mental health and our, you know, our bodies to stay well. So whatever you can do to, yeah, to start even just a little bit by little bit build out that practice, and also involve the people in your life around you because I hear a lot of people say, you know, that have kids that have a partner that have a really demanding job. I don't have time to do a creative practice, you know, my life is full enough already. To that I say like what could you turn into a creative practice that you're already doing. Right. So what if you're, you know, at work, and, you know, there's this one meeting that you always have that's a brainstorming meeting, maybe that's your creative practice for now. Or, you know, maybe, maybe your kids in the morning they like to draw while they're eating breakfast or whatever. What if you join them? You know, so we don't have to, we don't have to quit our lives. We don't have to move to the commune in the mountains and become, you know, a tapestry weaver to experience the benefits of this stuff. We can, we can look in our own lives and we can make creativity fit our lives, not the other way around. And, you know, again, because that narrative around the artist, the struggling artist in their studio is so dangerous to us when it comes to creativity, because it feels so unachievable. But creativity itself is incredibly achievable and incredibly powerful, because it's yours. It's inherently yours. It's your birthright to claim it. So I would definitely encourage you to look for ways to make your life more creative, not pull yourself out of your life to be creative.

Love it. Love it. I'm all a big proponent of a big supporter of micro practices also, because again, looking at from a neural pathway, neural neuroscience and a neural pathway perspective, the more often we make that shift from one brand state into the other, particularly if we're trying to develop a new habit or a new way of being, if we can drop into that brain frequency in little ways throughout the day, every day, we're going to have a greater chance of being able to go there on command when we want to. So achieving that flow state or that whatever it is that you feel when you're in that creative mode, it becomes easier and easier the more you practice it. And I say this over and over again because I need the reminders as anybody else. And that's why that's why I keep talking about it. It's not because I've mastered it or, you know, I have ascended like a like a yogi to the top of my creative. Right. I struggle. I struggle so much with particularly with flow and, and maintaining my creative habits that I have to pay like almost like an hourly amount of attention to it. Otherwise, it's so easy like I and I've said this, you know, I say this all the time and I bear repeating like the world is set up to distract you from your purpose. It is not designed to roll out the red carpet and to welcome you into whatever it is that you're trying to achieve. You know, there is a system, there is a generic system that's set up for a particular type of person in the world. And if you are that person, great. Off you go walk down that path. But for the rest of us who, you know, want to live to the beat of our own drum, who maybe we're multi passionate. And, you know, we want to have the corporate job. We want to have the good family. We want to have creative pursuits. We want to have an impact in the world. You know, when we are multi passionate, you have to think differently than the dominant paradigm, you know, and so, and I'm getting a bit like heady and philosophically. But it's a conscious choice and it's something that you have to work really hard to override. It doesn't mean that it's not possible. It's possible for everybody in your own way, you know, so I think there's definitely value for looking for examples of what you want and how you want to live your life in the world. And then doing what you can to bring in elements of that to start. But it's not creativity is definitely not something that is just reserved for a particular group of people. It's a human trait that is just it's just lying dormant. It's it's in there. It's just waiting for you to activate it.

Marion: Yeah, and it's active. It's just a matter of us bringing consciousness to what's already occurring. Yeah, figuring out how what shape or form it  wants to take, you know, and what we need, you know, what we need in this moment is going to be different to tomorrow. And thus our creative expression of that will change shape. And so yeah, a lot of it does come down to this self awareness piece and and taking just a few beats to to check in with yourself as often as you can. And you know, I've read a lot about like high performing habits and all this kind of thing and and off like all of them say like you're not going to change anything until you slow down enough to actually listen to yourself. But you have to have a practice of checking in and and you know, observing your emotional landscape, because that'll really dictate what you can take on and what you can do.

Dana: Well, that's juicy. Thanks, Marion. So much.

Marion: Thank you. Oh my gosh. You're indulging me.

Dana: It's a delight. Amazing. So what are you, what are you creating or what's next for you? What's going on in your world?

Marion: Yeah, so it's been a really interesting last year for me in life and business and I've been I've been floating between all these different things and and, you know, I've not, I've not found the solution but also like I've started to accept that this is this is the way I pay for living a creative life is that I don't often know where I'm going. And so if you know if you're out there listening thinking like I just can't nail this I can't figure this out I can't you know there's just there's something in the way just it's going to be okay. First of all, it's going to be all right. You will figure it out. It or it will figure out figure itself out and then you'll figure then you'll hear it. For me at the moment, I'm working on I've been I'm running these journaling workshops called the expression sessions, which are sort of between 60 to 90 minutes, where I give it's a bit of a blend of like a masterclass on journaling and a creative writing tutorial. So it's really an opportunity to start tapping into the self expression piece in your own way in your own words by starting that conversation with yourself so I sort of teach you how to create the right questions and also to build out a bit of a recipe for your own journaling practice. That's not cookie cutter, but I sort of give you a few of the elements and you can sort of mix and match and decide for yourself. And then yeah just doing lots of speaking gigs. So I'm, you know, going to events and conferences and I've got some goals around how many I want to do and I just want to be around like minded people and talk about creativity in a way that's nourishing and accessible and not scary.

Dana: That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Are you carrying on with your podcast which is absolutely fantastic.

Marion: Yes, isn't it killer. I think we've had a bit of a hiatus as I've done. I've been doing a lot of traveling over the last six months. But yeah, it's getting a reboot shortly. And yeah, it's where really my little corner of the internet where I get the opportunity to talk about post dramatic growth and creativity and the things that don't kill us and what we do with them. And in line with that I also have an awesome sub stack called the creative urge, which you can see all this stuff on my website. It's all listed on there which is marionpublicreative.com plug plug. And yeah, I'm looking to like writing your writing in that space is so inspiring.

Dana: I've looked forward to every time you pop into my inbox and I go and devour it. Yeah, highly recommend. Subscribe.

Marion: I really don't hold back. So it's not like fluffy, fluffy advice or like really generic tips. Like I will I will pull the junk out of my life and find a way to make it turn it into something valuable for you. But yeah, I'm really looking forward to growing that community because I really there this we need to have these conversations more. And we you know we can't wait for like mental health awareness month. It needs to be something that we're doing every week and you know keeping each other supporting each other keeping each other accountable and yeah and just because that's that's the thing right it's a practice so we got to we got to keep our eyes on each other and do what we can to to make sure that we keep going. That's the goal is really it's like I just want to keep going.

Dana: That's fantastic. I'm with you one foot in front of the other. One day at a time and honestly the question I asked myself about literally everything is like what's the next logical step I can take right now. And then I focus on that because if you look beyond that. Oh Lord like life gets like she's she's spicy she gets too spicy if I look beyond that.

Marion: I easily get overwhelmed also I can relate. I just freeze right up when I have so many options.

Dana: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Fantastic. And I think that's that's great. That's just a lot of different beautiful directions. I can't wait to keep in touch and keep watching how you grow and expand and keep providing opportunities for us to loop in. Because you're brilliant.

Marion: And likewise! Anyone listening: my DMs are always open so if you've heard today that you want to learn more about or you came to work together in a few capacities. I'd love to. So thanks for having me. This has been just a delight.

Dana: Absolutely. Thanks so much Marion. We look forward to having you back.